Comments on: Thoughts about the current Zeitgeist situation (GNOME 3 and beyond) http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/ I like potato chips Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:18:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Links 3/3/2010: CrossOver 9.0, Android 2.1 | Boycott Novell http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4456 Links 3/3/2010: CrossOver 9.0, Android 2.1 | Boycott Novell Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:29:20 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4456 [...] Thoughts about the current Zeitgeist situation (GNOME 3 and beyond) I would love to see Zeitgeist growing to be something like Telepathy in terms of providing a standard for event logging (even if its in python), and I hope we get there soon. And I hope Nokia and Intel could also make use of what we have and not reinvent the wheel if they like what we do…. [...] [...] Thoughts about the current Zeitgeist situation (GNOME 3 and beyond) I would love to see Zeitgeist growing to be something like Telepathy in terms of providing a standard for event logging (even if its in python), and I hope we get there soon. And I hope Nokia and Intel could also make use of what we have and not reinvent the wheel if they like what we do…. [...]

]]> By: Cally http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4448 Cally Wed, 03 Mar 2010 01:02:49 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4448 I fear, like many initially cool-sounding ideas, Zeitgeist is a problem looking for a solution. So far, I've yet to see a single compelling use case that would make me want to use it. I fear, like many initially cool-sounding ideas, Zeitgeist is a problem looking for a solution. So far, I’ve yet to see a single compelling use case that would make me want to use it.

]]> By: oliver http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4441 oliver Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:51:43 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4441 Maybe you could collect some ideas where _you_ would like to see Zeitgeist integration, and then ask specific app developers for this. For example, as mentioned above some integration in file chooser would be nice (but might be a too intrusive change). Another nice thing would be if the mail client's "Add Attachment" button would automatically offer files which were recently used - this might be a change that's small and non-intrusive, and would show users what's possible. So for example go to devs of Thunderbird, Evolution, Claws..., tell about the ideas, and ask if somebody is interested to add this feature or to write a plugin. Maybe you could collect some ideas where _you_ would like to see Zeitgeist integration, and then ask specific app developers for this. For example, as mentioned above some integration in file chooser would be nice (but might be a too intrusive change).

Another nice thing would be if the mail client’s “Add Attachment” button would automatically offer files which were recently used – this might be a change that’s small and non-intrusive, and would show users what’s possible. So for example go to devs of Thunderbird, Evolution, Claws…, tell about the ideas, and ask if somebody is interested to add this feature or to write a plugin.

]]> By: Seif Lotfy http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4440 Seif Lotfy Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:07:51 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4440 @anonymous: Check your facts http://trueg.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/just-another-way-of-browsing-your-files/ @anonymous: Check your facts
http://trueg.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/just-another-way-of-browsing-your-files/

]]> By: anonymous http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4439 anonymous Tue, 02 Mar 2010 09:52:09 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4439 "I mean even KDE 4.4 copied our functionality (Zeitgeist-Filesystem) into Nepomuk." KDE already has this and you're only talking about this. Maybe you're copying from them? “I mean even KDE 4.4 copied our functionality (Zeitgeist-Filesystem) into Nepomuk.”

KDE already has this and you’re only talking about this. Maybe you’re copying from them?

]]> By: Tom http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4436 Tom Tue, 02 Mar 2010 07:57:12 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4436 I love GAJ, Zeitgeist and the Nautilus integration. I think the file chooser should get Zeitgeist too. Just stick with it. It is amazing tech. A side note though: Couldn't you reimplement some parts (eventually all of them) in Genie (Python-Vala). Start with parts where Genie is now mature enough and expand. Reimplementing everything in C is just insane, but in a world where Gnome will mostly run on mobile devices (the future) Python is not really the answer (Google tried hard to make it fast, but didn't really succeed) I love GAJ, Zeitgeist and the Nautilus integration. I think the file chooser should get Zeitgeist too.

Just stick with it. It is amazing tech.

A side note though: Couldn’t you reimplement some parts (eventually all of them) in Genie (Python-Vala). Start with parts where Genie is now mature enough and expand.

Reimplementing everything in C is just insane, but in a world where Gnome will mostly run on mobile devices (the future) Python is not really the answer (Google tried hard to make it fast, but didn’t really succeed)

]]> By: Thorsten Prante http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4434 Thorsten Prante Tue, 02 Mar 2010 05:29:46 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4434 @You: Zeitgeist is an event-logging framework, providing activity awareness from user-related as well as from more computer-side events. It can do much more than what is currently visible in what you term as "a lot of fancy timeline related stuff". Still, our starting-point use case was the ubiquitous re-finding problem, which some computer users happen to have. GAJ is our developing contribution to it. And there is more to come. Some of us are very organized long-time computer users, just as those you probably have in mind stating "For such people zeitgeist seems to be next to useless". Again, Zeitgeist is not equal to GAJ. And the point with GAJ is that personal computing in whatever form is becoming so common place that even unorganized users appear on the scene - yes, they are users, too :-) And there are many of them. Plus, recognizing situations, in which time invested into keeping and organizing personal information or references will pay off in the end and distinguishing those situations from other cases, when re-finding can be more easily achieved is not trivial for many. Even worse, this keeping and organizing work is known to sometimes track users off from their primary task, keeping and organizing being the secondary. Well, and one of Zeitgeist’s ambitions happens to be alleviating this secondary-task burden for GAJ users. Finally, there are people considering it more natural to re-situate in what they have done and experienced as opposed to going back to what they have filed. Example: Alan has the habit to come up with ideas when listening to certain songs. He jots his notes down here and there, and thereby, yes, classifies as a member of the unorganized user species. Still, even Alan usually wants to get back to his notes at some point. Just now, he remembers to have formulated “some stuff in a row” about two weeks ago, while listening to song X. As he knows the titles of his favorite thinking-songs by heart, Alan wants to employ this knowledge for referring back to his creativity burst. Oops … Not making a short story long: “While”, “before”, and “after” tend to be little supported query means in today’s common desktop experience. Zeitgeist provides users with this sort of relative time scoping, because time is one of the central means for everyday people to structure and remember their everyday activities and experiences. As our approach is totally open information-format wise and doesn’t only look backwards in time, but allows also subscribing to events, we know that there are other use cases coming up, with other Zeitgeist-enabled tools. @You: Zeitgeist is an event-logging framework, providing activity awareness from user-related as well as from more computer-side events. It can do much more than what is currently visible in what you term as “a lot of fancy timeline related stuff”. Still, our starting-point use case was the ubiquitous re-finding problem, which some computer users happen to have. GAJ is our developing contribution to it. And there is more to come.
Some of us are very organized long-time computer users, just as those you probably have in mind stating “For such people zeitgeist seems to be next to useless”. Again, Zeitgeist is not equal to GAJ. And the point with GAJ is that personal computing in whatever form is becoming so common place that even unorganized users appear on the scene – yes, they are users, too :-) And there are many of them.
Plus, recognizing situations, in which time invested into keeping and organizing personal information or references will pay off in the end and distinguishing those situations from other cases, when re-finding can be more easily achieved is not trivial for many. Even worse, this keeping and organizing work is known to sometimes track users off from their primary task, keeping and organizing being the secondary. Well, and one of Zeitgeist’s ambitions happens to be alleviating this secondary-task burden for GAJ users.
Finally, there are people considering it more natural to re-situate in what they have done and experienced as opposed to going back to what they have filed. Example: Alan has the habit to come up with ideas when listening to certain songs. He jots his notes down here and there, and thereby, yes, classifies as a member of the unorganized user species. Still, even Alan usually wants to get back to his notes at some point. Just now, he remembers to have formulated “some stuff in a row” about two weeks ago, while listening to song X. As he knows the titles of his favorite thinking-songs by heart, Alan wants to employ this knowledge for referring back to his creativity burst. Oops …
Not making a short story long: “While”, “before”, and “after” tend to be little supported query means in today’s common desktop experience. Zeitgeist provides users with this sort of relative time scoping, because time is one of the central means for everyday people to structure and remember their everyday activities and experiences. As our approach is totally open information-format wise and doesn’t only look backwards in time, but allows also subscribing to events, we know that there are other use cases coming up, with other Zeitgeist-enabled tools.

]]> By: Seif Lotfy http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4432 Seif Lotfy Tue, 02 Mar 2010 04:13:28 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4432 @John (J5) Palmieri: Thank you for this amazing comment! I agree with you fully! Thus I would like to have another irc meeting between Shell, Tracker and Zeitgeist devs to discuss possible use cases. We cant afford hacking up solution to use cases that the Shell devs find unimportant. Such a meeting would make alot of sense to have before GUADEC... @John (J5) Palmieri: Thank you for this amazing comment! I agree with you fully! Thus I would like to have another irc meeting between Shell, Tracker and Zeitgeist devs to discuss possible use cases. We cant afford hacking up solution to use cases that the Shell devs find unimportant.
Such a meeting would make alot of sense to have before GUADEC…

]]> By: John (J5) Palmieri http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4430 John (J5) Palmieri Tue, 02 Mar 2010 03:50:44 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4430 Seif, you say the Shell doesn't do anything new. What you are failing to see is that it is concentrating on getting the details right and not trying to reinvent the world (though I assert that it does actually bring something new to the table but that is a different argument). The issue with Zeitgeist is, what is the usecase for GNOME? Right now it is a ball of pretty cool technology with a lot of potential but no one has stepped up to say this is how it should be used in GNOME 3.0 beyond a few mockups of the Nautilus timeline view. By the way, those look great, and would be a nice first step into getting Zeitgeist integrated. The thing with design is it is pretty bad to say, we have this technology, now lets fit it into our design. One should first identify a problem that needs to be solved and design for that. If you happen to have technology that will solve that issue then use it. Looking at the UX hackfest, they may not have mentioned Zeitgeist but it doesn't mean it can't be used to implement the design at hand. Same goes for the design of the shell. I'm sure the team would be happy to take patches which integrates Zeitgeist functionality though with 3.0 around the corner I think you are going to have to be patient before it is switched on in the mainline branch. It may be frustrating but you should look at the experience of other disruptive technology like D-Bus. We at one point had to slow adoption and ask people to not go crazy implementing D-Bus apps as we slowly rolled it out to support base infrastructure bits such as HAL and then finally felt it was robust enough to be supported for all apps. Today it is pretty transparent and pervasive in every GNOME App. So in other words, get Zeitgeist integrated for a few specific use cases which will give outside developers an idea of best practices and some sample GNOME specific code to look at. At that point they will be beating at your door to add Zeitgeist to their apps and pretty soon we will wonder how we lived without it. Seif, you say the Shell doesn’t do anything new. What you are failing to see is that it is concentrating on getting the details right and not trying to reinvent the world (though I assert that it does actually bring something new to the table but that is a different argument).

The issue with Zeitgeist is, what is the usecase for GNOME? Right now it is a ball of pretty cool technology with a lot of potential but no one has stepped up to say this is how it should be used in GNOME 3.0 beyond a few mockups of the Nautilus timeline view. By the way, those look great, and would be a nice first step into getting Zeitgeist integrated.

The thing with design is it is pretty bad to say, we have this technology, now lets fit it into our design. One should first identify a problem that needs to be solved and design for that. If you happen to have technology that will solve that issue then use it. Looking at the UX hackfest, they may not have mentioned Zeitgeist but it doesn’t mean it can’t be used to implement the design at hand. Same goes for the design of the shell. I’m sure the team would be happy to take patches which integrates Zeitgeist functionality though with 3.0 around the corner I think you are going to have to be patient before it is switched on in the mainline branch.

It may be frustrating but you should look at the experience of other disruptive technology like D-Bus. We at one point had to slow adoption and ask people to not go crazy implementing D-Bus apps as we slowly rolled it out to support base infrastructure bits such as HAL and then finally felt it was robust enough to be supported for all apps. Today it is pretty transparent and pervasive in every GNOME App.

So in other words, get Zeitgeist integrated for a few specific use cases which will give outside developers an idea of best practices and some sample GNOME specific code to look at. At that point they will be beating at your door to add Zeitgeist to their apps and pretty soon we will wonder how we lived without it.

]]> By: Seif Lotfy http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-4429 Seif Lotfy Tue, 02 Mar 2010 03:46:39 +0000 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/?p=1103#comment-4429 @Simon: Sorry for misunderstanding :) But yeah we used to change the API but we haven't since the 0.3.0 release. we just add new methods but we never break the API. And before adding a new method we really think it through. We have this one method that has been waiting since before the 0.3.0 release that will first me introduced with the upcoming release. We wanted to ensure that we wont break it later or at least for the 0.3 cycle. @Simon: Sorry for misunderstanding :)
But yeah we used to change the API but we haven’t since the 0.3.0 release.
we just add new methods but we never break the API. And before adding a new method we really think it through. We have this one method that has been waiting since before the 0.3.0 release that will first me introduced with the upcoming release. We wanted to ensure that we wont break it later or at least for the 0.3 cycle.

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